SBC=>ENCOUNTERS

The Majority of Southern Baptist Education NOT Historically Calvinist

MY ORIGINAL POST ON THE ABOVE TITLE WAS EATEN, SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE. It took me 5 hours to prepare this post so I don't think I will bother rewriting it in its entirety.  Though I had more links for you to peruse, I have but one that is most necessary in understanding its origin and claim.

I encountered an interesting post by Trey Medley, a Phd. Student in England.  He challenges a few critics, as well as the Gospel Coalition's assertions, of the Traditional Statement recently published at SBC Today.  I do hope you take time to read Trey's well-written, easily understood, article entitled My Take On the Statement of the Traditional Southern Baptist Understanding of God's Plan of Salvation.

[Trey Medley is a PhD student in Philosophical Theology at King’s College London and an ordained minister of the Southern Baptist Church (USA). He has a wife and two kids and a passion for theology and the teaching ministry of the Church. You can follow Trey on twitter at @MedleyTrey.]

Puzzling Ideas and Views of ANTI-Traditionalists

I have tried to refrain from commenting on the blogs since the SBC 2012 Convention.  I've even refrained from reading several blogs I use to frequent.  I've all but stopped writing on this blog and others that I maintain.  It seems my spirit wars with my flesh and often my flesh wins the battle.  Which is proof-positive that even after we are saved, and the Lord regenerates us, our will still seeks it's own way as the Apostle Paul so aptly described in Romans 7:15.  An unyielded will grieves the Spirit as we choose our way instead of God's.

Indeed, just the other day as I read the tag-team sparring match between two Anti-Traditionalists disputing Traditionalist, Dr. Braxton Hunter's,* views on a Christian's life and response to the gospel, as "a can of worms", I found myself jumping into the comment stream and posting this:

"These tag-team questions remind me of when the pharisees kept asking Jesus, but, but, but….if a man had 5 wives on earth who are they married to in heaven? geesh. Sometime I think it’s not a can of worms being opened, it’s your brains falling out of your heads. A person has the free will to open the door receive Jesus, and ask Him to come in, and they decide they really want what God is offering–total cleansing from their filth and disobedience and rebellion. So God not only forgives them, He comes inside them and creates an entirely new creature. Then Paul tells them that we battle the flesh and the spirit within the rest of our days until the day of completion. What is so complicated?" selahV

Naughty, naughty me--not a shining moment.  I got so rattled with the persistent goading questions which could never be answered satisfactorily by a Traditonalist, no matter what is written in reply.  So, in my reckless abandon to my own will, I succumbed to the flesh of my past and posted the unseemly "brains" analogy, albeit descriptive, of the thinking patterns of the Anti-Traditionalists in said conversation.  When a Presbyterian reposted my comment and added his admonishment: "Nice. Not.", I first wickedly chuckled.  Then I saw the error of my choice of verbiage and once again, recomitted myself to reading more than writing.

Unfortunately, some of the Anti-Traditionalists have left me wondering if there is anything I could ever say that might pass muster and scrutiny for value, worth, or theological correctness.  While some of the articles in the Traditional Statement and the authors of posts at SBC Today have found agreement with some non-Traditionalists, even those points of agreement are short-lived in the comment streams as Anti-traditionalists begin voicing their disdain upon SBC pastors, SBC theologians, and Seminary professors.

One Anti-Traditionalist posted on his blog that pastors who had signed the Traditional Statement were "forced" or "pressured" to do so.  "Forced."  I know some of those pastors and they were not forced, nor coerced.** When Dr. Tom Ascol is confronted with his assertion and asked for links, he replied:

"I don't know of any links that are available about the pressure that has been applied to some to sign the statement. I was not told this in confidence. I hope those who experienced it will be willing at some point to speak for themselves. If the issue can be depoliticized that is much more likely to happen."  Tom Ascol

Along with Dr. Ascol's alleged assertion, a few statements that have me scratching my head are as follows:

One Anti-traditionalist responds to a question made by a Traditionalist regarding John Calvin's practices "Where was the life changing Gospel, friend?":

(Anti-Traditionalist):  "And that will forever be your problem. The gospel isn’t about “life change,” it’s about Christ dying as a sacrifice for our sins."

To that teensey exchange, I must query the Anti-Trad, "WHAT?  "The gospel isn't about "life change, ["?????] it's about Christ dying as a sacrifice for our sins."

While I agree to the latter portion of that statement, I'm sorry friends, but what in the world is the gospel message if not Christ also dying to save us from our sins, forgive us of our sins, and create a new heart within us, seal us, abide in us, edify us, correct us, convict us, gift us, and indeed, change us from enemies of Christ to ambassadors of Christ, righteous and holy acceptable in His sight?

Is the gospel inanimate? without life or power?  For what purpose is the need for God's only Son to die an excruciating and humiliating death if not to save us and "change" us, so our sins of scarlet will be as white as snow?  If that is not a life change, what is it?

How can dead be made alive without a life-change? If there is no light, no salt where is the gospel in the reborn?  Why must the only sinless man ever to walk upon this earth be made sin wherein he had no sin, bear ALL the sin of mankind if the gospel does nothing to change the life of those for whom He died?

"Come, all ye weary and heavy laden [by law, works, oppression, and duty], take My yoke upon you, and I will give you rest."  Weariness is changed to being comforted.  Unrighteousness changes to righteousness.  Darkness is changed to light. The gospel is power.  Power to save, cleanse, and change sinful man.  It's the power to redeem, to justify, sanctify, and continue to work in man to change him more and more each day.

Just yesterday, one Anti-Traditionalist writes in response to a commenter who questions John Calvin's theology by his practices.  Lydia, a non-calvinist writes:

"Calvin had believers who disagreed with him imprisoned and tortured. And when a professing believer does such things, we should question every word from his pen.”

Patrick says on June 29, 2012 at 1:39 pm:

"While I’m not surprised that such drivel is posited from here, my mind is blown by the complaints raised against Calvin. Particularly given the beliefs of those raising the complaints. Do you not see that it was Luther and Calvin who actually understood the difference between law and gospel….the very thing you’re complaining about? Clearly not." Patrick, a Calvinist

So Lydia responds at June 29, 2012 at 2:07 pm:

"Do you not realize that Luther wrote about how depraved Wittenburg was AFTER the entire episode of the Reformation… all they went through… and Luther lamented the people were actually worse! Where was the life changing Gospel, friend?

You forget that Luther just wanted to “reform” the Catholic church. The Theses are all about the indulgences being sold. Seriously, how could they really understand the difference when they both went along with “compelling” belief even to the point of imprisoning/torturing people…. which you call “drivel”? Do you not see the cognative dissonance in that?"

Then Max, a Traditionalist, defends the life-changing Gospel at 4:38 pm with Scripture:

“Anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!” (2 Cor 5:17)

“We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” (Rom 6:4)

“Put on your new nature, created to be like God–truly righteous and holy.” (Eph 4:24)

“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.” (Gal 2:20)

etc."

And now I sit here wondering.  Is there really any comment or any conversation anyone can offer to bridge the divide between Traditionalists and Anti-Traditionalists?  Even when the Trad-Statement agrees in part with teachings of reformed theology, the Trad is accused of making a fuss over nothing.  Shane Dodson, an anti-Traditionalist writes:

"The Gospel isn’t “Jesus loves everyone and died for everyone.”

Please cite book/chapter/verse in which the apostles preached such a Gospel.

The Gospel is that sin has been atoned for by Jesus Christ.

“Jesus Christ came into this world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.” – 1 Tim 1:15

Christians should preach the Gospel in the manner after the apostles…not denominational tradition."  Shane Dodson (Anti-Traditionalist)

Christians, my readers, friends, brothers and sisters, I believe the Gospel preached by SBC Traditionalists is "in the manner after the apostles".  However, I admit, I do not make my assertions based on my understanding of Calvin, Arminius, Anthropology, the Council of Orange, or the men in Geneva centuries ago.  I have a tough time with semantics and the complication of a simple message from Jesus.  So, I follow Jesus, and abide in Him and trust His words, none other-- which, in the scheme of things, makes my words, and those of others, pale in significance, don't you think?  selahV 

*(Braxton Hunter, PhD, Professor of Philosophy and Apologetics at Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary in Newburgh, Indiana, and former President of the Conference of Southern Baptist Evangelists)

**TO THOSE PASTORS who Tom Ascol alleges felt "pressured or forced to sign" the Traditional Statement on Soteriology:  How awful for you!  I'm sure this could be quickly resolved if you simply contact the site and remove your names from the list.

A Layperson's Take on Article Two of the Statement of Traditional Southern Baptists

Okay, folks.  My brain has been turned inside out and upside down in the past few weeks.  I use to think it was difficult to read the book of Romans and grasp it it all.  That is nothing compared to what man can do to a simple statement of faith.  I suppose most folks say that about the entire Word of God.

In the past decades of my faith in Christ, I have had my share of debates with Atheists, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses.  I've two-stepped and fox-trotted with several other folks, including New Agers and Christian Scientists.  I've tangoed with a few Church of Christ believers (my father being one), and square-danced with partners in the Baptist faith.  However, I have never encountered such dissection of meanings and and found as many divided beliefs and opinions as I've found within my own faith of Southern Baptists--especially in regards to the TS.

Most folks seem to be hung up on Article Two of the Statement:

Article Two: The Sinfulness of Man

We affirm that, because of the fall of Adam, every person inherits a nature and environment inclined toward sin and that every person who is capable of moral action will sin. Each person’s sin alone brings the wrath of a holy God, broken fellowship with Him, ever-worsening selfishness and destructiveness, death, and condemnation to an eternity in hell.

We deny that Adam’s sin resulted in the incapacitation of any person’s free will or rendered any person guilty before he has personally sinned. While no sinner is remotely capable of achieving salvation through his own effort, we deny that any sinner is saved apart from a free response to the Holy Spirit’s drawing through the Gospel.

Genesis 3:15-24; 6:5; Deuteronomy 1:39; Isaiah 6:5, 7:15-16;53:6; Jeremiah 17:5,9, 31:29-30; Ezekiel 18:19-20; Romans 1:18-32; 3:9-18, 5:12, 6:23; 7:9; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 Corinthians 1:18-25; 6:9-10;15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Hebrews 9:27-28; Revelation 20:11-15

This is not a Phd. theologian's take on Article Two.  This is my individual take on it.  As one New Calvinist said to me about a month ago in a comment stream, this is how I'm "tracking" it:

The first sentence of Article Two's affirmation seems rather plain to me.  Adam sinned.  I will sin.  I will sin the first chance I get.  My sin gets immediate condemnation and places me in position to receive the wrath of God.  No way out.  It's the way of things.  It's set up by the Creator--the Most Holy God.  The wages of sin is death.  No way around the payment plan.  It's a done deal.  Gonna die because of Adam's sin.  He brought that upon us all because of his disobedience in eating of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.  If he had remained faithful to God, the world would still be a perfect continuous life-giving flow of bliss and blessing.  Didn't happen.  So we get the consequence of that sin.  Everyone dies.  Every thing dies--bluebirds, vultures, tomato plants, beans, pear trees, blackberry bushes, daisies, and man.  We all croak eventually.

The second sentence of the affirmation about sinfulness seems rather clear, to me, also.  I don't get punished for what you do or my daddy did, or my mother, or my grandparents.  When I stand before a Holy God to account for my sin, and my life, I and I alone am responsible for what I decide to do as a result of my choices.  By my own willful individual sin, I am doomed to an eternity separated from the God of love and life.  Without His divine intervention through His perfect, sinless Son, Jesus Christ, I am hopeless and destined to die continually in the pit of fire created for Lucifer and his minions.

HOWEVER....

should I ignore the Spirit of God as He draws me to Himself, I am no better than Adam who chose to ignore God's instruction to not eat of that one Tree in the Garden.  I am able, just as Adam was able to follow or not follow God's commands.  If I respond to the Spirit's wooing presence and miraculous regenerating offer of a new heart with affirmation of belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, (say "yes" to Jesus.  Open the door when I hear His knock), then He will come into me and create in me a new person which is acceptable for God to indwell on this earth (It's called the temple of God).  Within my heart, mind, soul and body, God makes His home and helps me grow in His will and His way.

God covers His temple (me), with His Son's blood and passes over me in judgment like the "death angel" passed over the Israelites' homes when they placed the blood of the lamb on their doorposts.  In faith, they heard how to be saved; in faith they believed what they heard; in faith they acted upon what they'd been told to do.  In faith they waited and received life while those who did not follow the instructions, died as a result of inaction upon what they had heard.  Those who heard and believed and acted upon their faith, saw the kingdom of God at work in their lives as their firstborn were spared.  Those who heard, did not believe, and refused to act upon what they heard, they died.

I was not incapacitated (unable) to refuse God--nor were the people of Israel.  They had a choice to respond to God in obedience and belief or disobedience and disbelief.  God called them "stiffnecked and stubborn".  I refused God repeatedly over the years whenever I was told about Jesus and saw friends and family come to faith in Him.  I pooh-poohed my own father's pleas.  In those moments, I do believe the Holy Spirit was using those examples of faith to show me the "blood on their doorposts".  Nevertheless, I ignored their examples of faith and witness and repentance.  Had I continued to ignore the doorposts and resisted the drawing of God to Himself, I would not be writing this today.

However, one day God showed me my way was futile.  My desires were not His.  My hopes were empty.  My ambitions were without purpose.  My needs were endless.  My ability was without competence.  My sins were way too many to overcome, or fix, or amend.  Had it not been for the patient, continual, constant working of the Spirit of God in and throughout my life, I would never have acknowledged and accepted His love, mercy, grace, and forgiveness.  I'm glad He made it clear to me.  I'm glad He showed me Himself and not Pelagian, Augustine, Calvin and Arminius.  He gave me a conscience to understand my need for Him. He showed me myself apart from Him through the laws He wanted me to obey which I failed to keep.  He showed me Himself, through His Spirit, by His Grace and awesome love.  People all around me lifted Him up and He drew me to Himself.  People who knew Jesus, acted out His love, showed me His goodness, poured out acceptance, tolerance and offered me hope in a relationship with Him (that is a manifestation of an indwelling Spirit of God).  The Word of God was preached, and taught to me and I came to understand clearer what I witnessed, all I'd heard, and how to respond to what I heard and saw.  From that time onward, I've sought to live as Christ wanted me to, especially in going, telling, teaching, and discipling others in how to know Jesus and how to be saved.

This is what the "TS" is all about as this layperson sees it.  It's hard for folks to discern the heart of another via internet writings.  It's hard to communicate the desire and the sincerity we hold when we call one another brother and sister.  May I leave you with these verses:

"I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith."  Romans 1:11-12

We each have a gift in the body of Christ.  We each have our own specific way of using that gift for edification, encouragement, and exhortation.  I pray we are able to look closely at what God tells each of us to do and say and that "whatsoever we say or do", we do it "all to the glory of God".  I may not get it right all the time, but I'm trying.  selahV

When Men and Their Words Become IDOLS...

...people fail to follow God.  They disobey His Word.  They teach amiss.  They sail on the boats of every wind of doctrine.  They are the sheep that go astray.  And the Master must come looking for them...and find them on their wayward paths and put them back with His flock.

We cannot lose so great a salvation once we have been sealed by His Holy Spirit.  But we can sure lose an oar or two if we follow the lead of some teachers.  I've often found myself agreeing with someone's words I read, some teacher's instructions, some pastor's preaching, some writer's viewpoints.  However, to allow any one person to be the end-all for what God says is negligent of me in reading the Word of God as He has commanded I do.  Though men help teach me, the Holy Spirit has been given to me to convict me, teach me, guide me, lead me, walk beside me, comfort me, encourage me, and bring to my mind the Scriptures which God wants me to heed in a particular situation.  I love Chapter 5 of 1st John:

1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

6This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. 9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 14And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God^a will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

18We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.

19We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

20And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 21Little children, keep yourselves from idols. ESV [thanks to Biblos]

I find it amazing that after writing to Christians about the assurances Christians have through God and in Jesus and with His Spirit, that John ends this chapter with a cautionary exhortation: "Little children, keep yourselves from idols."  I must also reiterate verse 9 here: "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son."

Men come with wisdom, convictions, ideas, evidence of historical agreements, confessions, and doctrines about God's Word.  Yet, in the end, what man says pales in comparison to what God says about our Lord Jesus Christ.  And Jesus says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock.  If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me." Jesus knocks, His Spirit speaks, and we who hear and open the door with a welcoming reception, are blessed by Christ's own promise to come in and fellowship with us.

Jesus says, "IF".  If is a tiny little word that leaves room for any person who has ears to hear or eyes to see.  My Creator gave me ears and eyes and the ability to use both.  He gave me the mind to comprehend and though it be of flesh, His grace provides me the means by which to use that mind.  His grace is all-encompassing and bestows upon me His love in that because He first loved me, I loved Him.  There is no contradiction that His love and grace provides me through faith in His only begotten Son to believe His Word preached to me is true.  His Spirit reveals to me my sinfulness and His Truth to free me from that perpetual desire to fall to temptation.  With the same will He gives me to choose sin, He gives me the will to hear and obey.  Without Him I am nothing and apart from Him I am nothing.  Yet He chooses to give me the ability to hear His knock.  To humble myself in order to receive His mercy and everlasting life.

Jesus also says, " Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.  In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.  And you know the way to where I am going.” John 14:1-4

Those who know Jesus, know.  We know.  We do not question.  We know.  I know.  John wrote 1st John so we would "know".  He said in verse thirteen: "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."   I do not need Augustine, nor Pelagius, nor Calvin, nor Arminius.  I have Jesus and the Word of God.  I will not make the words of man's testimony more relevant, nor more sanctified, nor more creative, nor more valid, or better interpreted than what my Lord has given to me through His Holy Spirit and the written Word of God.  I do not lean on any man's words, nor to my own understanding (Proverbs 3:5-6); I lean on God's completely.  I acknowledge Him.  I truly believe Southern Baptists teach this truth.  And that is why I am a Southern Baptist.  selahV

How Do Traditional Baptists Unite with Calvinist Baptists in the SBC?

Tough question given the road of superiority some folk seek to travel as they satirically decode notable leaders responses.  However,  a kinder, gentler, more reasoned thinker offers us Scripture to tend to the possible under Christ our Lord.

I've encountered more than a couple of diverse conversations (here and here) related to the Statement of Traditional Baptists Understanding of God's Plan of Salvation.  You probably have, too.  Some cause me to quiver, others shiver.  Some create calm, others provoke whirlpools of validation of Traditionalists claims of "New" Calvinism.  Accusations of heresy and semi-pelagianism abound--as do temptations to retaliate in kind.

I ask you:

How do we discuss our differences and recognize the blood-bought, Christ-wrought righteousness in each brother and sister in Christ?  Can we not see the love each other has for God, for Christ, for the lost?  Can we not speak with one another without charges of heresy?

Reading Dr. Malcolm Yarnell's post on unity, I find myself believing, once again, that we can--without hate or anger toward the opposition.  Dr. Yarnell, one of the esteemed and notable signors of the Traditional Statement, brings Scripture to the forefront of contentions:

"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity.
It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard, that went down to the skirts of his garments.
As the dew of Hermon, that descended upon the mountains of Zion, for there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life forevermore (Psalm 133).

"Scripture does not tell us "how" the dew on Mount Hermon falls on Mount Zion; it simply remarks that it does. Likewise, because of certain silences in Scripture, I cannot tell you how we can reconcile the doctrine of human responsibility with the doctrine of divine sovereignty in a manner that meets every theologian's preference, at least not on the basis of revelation. However, I can tell you that these two doctrines--divine sovereignty, or grace, and human responsibility, or free will (if you will)--are both true and both necessary to be affirmed, because they are both revealed in Scripture.
     My prayer is that we as Southern Baptists, whether we identify ourselves with the mountains of either Calvinism or Traditionalism, that we will seek our unity only in Christ by the Spirit before the Father. This unity is a gift of grace worked in us through sanctification on the basis of the truth of Scripture. It is a unity we desire. However, until we reach unity in how we bring the mountains of Zion and Hermon together, or, to put it cheekily, how we can successfully mix oil with water, we must trust that God will do it. Moreover, we must continue to come together as one to worship this God, this God who reveals to us His divine sovereignty, or grace, and our human responsibility to respond in faith, repent of our sins, and tell others how they too may be reconciled to the Trinity. Lord God, bring us unity in doctrine in Your time, but let our unity not be disrupted until then, for we wish to fulfill Your mission, and we know the world will believe and receive eternal life from You as they see us united in telling them of You."

Dr. Yarnell's entire post on unity can be read HERE.  Please give it a read and let it seep into the recesses of your mind and heart.  We do not have to treat one another like the world chooses to treat one another.  We can, indeed, find a way to discuss our differences with respect and kindness and love amid the controversy of orthodox theological views.  selahV

ANOTHER MUST READ FROM DR. MALCOLM YARNELL:  "Semi-Pelagianism, A Plea for Clarity and Charity"

The "Traditionalist Baptist Statement" IS and IS NOT

I've noticed a growing consensus of opinion on the statement, while reading the multiple comments on various blogs in regards to the "Traditionalist Statement" that was originally posted at SBC Today.  Folks seem to be confused.  They keep saying that the statement is mischaracterizing and misrepresenting Calvinists.  I cannot speak for all the other signatories, but I am not trying to mischaracterize or misrepresent Calvinists.

My understanding is that the Traditional Baptist Statement IS: "A Statement of Traditional Baptists Understanding of God's Plan of Salvation".

That is what my husband and I signed.

The Traditionalist Baptist Statement IS NOT: a denunciation of Calvinists as Southern Baptists.  It seems several arguments posed against the articles (especially in the denial category), is that Calvinists do not agree with that denial.

My husband and I did not sign a denunciation of Calvinists.

I do not believe anyone is saying Calvinists should agree with our denials.  Nor would we expect that would Calvinists agree with our affirmations, I suppose.  It would be nice, but that is not the purpose for the statement as I see it.  I had a fella comment on my previous post, who wrote: "Please be reformed".  I replied that I'd already been reborn, wasn't that sufficient?  He hasn't answered me yet.  But I write this post to say, I am not asking or desiring that Calvinists be UN-reformed.  And from all I read on hundreds of comments of a post by Dave Miller's question at SBC Voices on "What is the Gospel", we're all pretty close to understanding that the gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ and His death, burial and resurrection.  That He died to save us from our sins and His death paid our penalty for our sin so we who believe in Him and repent, will be filled with the Holy Spirit and make Him Lord of our lives.

The whole idea of the statement was to put forth a concise, clearly worded, scripturally based explanation of what most Southern Baptists believe about God's salvation for man.  The statement was not put forth to say what Arminians believe about soteriology.  And the statement was not put forth to say what most Southern Baptists think Calvinists believe.  Calvinists have a system of belief on soteriology, at least, I thought they did.  Calvinists believe in the Doctrines of Grace.  And those doctrines as I understand them, are what Calvinists affirm and embrace as the way of salvation.  And also, as I've discovered in conversations, some things remain a "mystery".

When folks ask me what Calvinists believe, I tell them what all the Calvinists told me, read the Doctrines of Grace.  That's what they believe.

Maybe I understand the Calvinist system of soteriology all wrong. Is the Doctrines of Grace what Calvinists understand their soteriology as being?

It seems that some Calvinistic Baptists are taking the Traditionalist Baptist Statement to mean, "Traditional Baptists believe THIS and Calvinistic Baptists believe THAT."  If that is true, then I think it is a misunderstanding of the document itself.

Just wanted to clear this up.  And if any of the wiser, more learned signatories do not think I am correct in my understanding of the purpose of the statement, then I sure would love for them to correct me wherein I am wrong.  selahV